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The Punisher: WarZone


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I personally think that Frank is the EASIEST character to put on screen. He's a human being in a human world. It's not rocket science.

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I'm not really sure how I feel about Lexi. It's nice to see her taking a stand for her work and I loved Green Street Hooligans but I can't help but feel as though she came off as a little......conceited/arrogant. Please, no one hate on me. This is just how I viewed her message.

 

Mike, I really agree with what you are saying about being able to bridge the gap between realistic and comic book.

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Yeah, it makes better sense now that I see those comic panels.

Lexi DID say she wanted it to look like the comic, I don't think she ever said she wanted it to look like the covers.

So that was probably just me reading into what she was saying and not really "getting" it.

It's a bold choice no doubt about it.

 

The funny thing is I always used Punisher MAX (even more so, the Marvel Knights run) as an example of how NOT to color comics.

Nothing personal against the colorists involved. I'm not trying to personally attack their talent or their tools. Generally speaking I just think it's garbage.

Sometimes the interior artist's work gets completely stepped on by all the hot shiny surfaces and Photoshop tricks. Leather coats end up looking like lacquered fiberglass, the blood is like a vid game; all 3D and shiny with highlights like someone threw a bottle of Tropicana Twister in the air, everything has a high-gloss-ultra-sheen. To me it's just sick, slick sheik for the sake of "because I can" . Speaking from a personal standpoint I hate when comics try to look like vid games. The kids probably do love it though.

 

Jimmy Palmiotti once told me he could have the shittiest artwork in the world saved by a good colorist, and he was referring to this same style I mention above.

I said Jimmy, you may be in tune with what the younger generation dig but it doesn't stop it from looking like shit regardless.

John Nada said it best - "It's like putting perfume on a pig." But see, I'm a traditionalist in a sense. Jimmy's finger is on the pulse.

He knows it's shit too, but it sells and he's smart enough to tap into it and not have an attitude ;)

 

Ultimately the audience will decide for themselves whether or not they dig the look of the film.

I think the youngsters and people who don't really have a clue, or care about such things will love it.

That could be 90% of the audience. And really, is it that big of a deal?

I could let my personal viewpoint on the subject drift into the ether if the film stands up from a substance and performance perspective.

In other words, who cares about some neon color if the film itself works.

 

And say what you want about the trailer but I do have to point out how I absolutely love that shot towards the end where Frank is stalking up towards a door in a kind of split screen with the wall (and very likely a door) separating him from the dozen or so baddies, locked and loaded on the other side.

That's a Punisher shot.

 

- TB

 

PS - I still stand by my comments about grading down the color. I think it would be a wise decision to tone it down some.

But hey, not my movie right? I'm just passionate about this type of stuff ;)

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Well, like I said I was an ass and read a version of the script. I didn't like a lot of it, and again like I said it looks like the changes were slight. So, until I see a full trailer I'm gonna have low expectations.

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I dunno, for the vast majority of Punisher MAX comics, I've loved the colouring. The art has always been brilliant, and the colouring for me enhances rather than detracts from the art work. I believe Dan Brown did the colouring on most of Leandro Fernandez's art, right? I always thought he gave it an almost dark otherworldly quality that still maintained that "gritty realism". And the colouring in Goran Parlov's last two arcs was great, much more simpler than the washed out look in Fernandez's arc, but it gives it a more noir look to me (the darker scenes, any scene set in sunlight never looked right from Parlov, but his stuff in Long, Cold Dark and Valley Forge, Valley Forge was great). The colouring in The Cell was so great, moody muted colours and just great dark shadows everywhere. The colours in MAX for me tend to show the world in a more twisted fashion, and that, I love.

 

If you want an example of how not to draw and colour a book, go give Punisher War Journal a read...

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I dunno, for the vast majority of Punisher MAX comics, I've loved the colouring. The art has always been brilliant, and the colouring for me enhances rather than detracts from the art work. I believe Dan Brown did the colouring on most of Leandro Fernandez's art, right? I always thought he gave it an almost dark otherworldly quality that still maintained that "gritty realism". And the colouring in Goran Parlov's last two arcs was great, much more simpler than the washed out look in Fernandez's arc, but it gives it a more noir look to me (the darker scenes, any scene set in sunlight never looked right from Parlov, but his stuff in Long, Cold Dark and Valley Forge, Valley Forge was great). The colouring in The Cell was so great, moody muted colours and just great dark shadows everywhere. The colours in MAX for me tend to show the world in a more twisted fashion, and that, I love.

 

If you want an example of how not to draw and colour a book, go give Punisher War Journal a read...

 

 

I completely agree man! As for the trailer I thought it was pretty bad ass for a 1 minute preview. Ray looks and sounds great, it looks like it has a lot of action and that they got the origin right...yeah the chandiler bit I didn't care for but it is just a few shots it could work in the over all movie. I don't even have a problem with the colors it is no where near Batman and Robin level...people just feel the need to go overboard when they don't care for something IMO. I had no faith in the film until the trailer....I really enjoyed the 2004 version and Tom Jane was just perfect in it...but he was the only thing that was. This film looks a lot closer to the comics over all. I will always Like Toma Punisher and he is still my Favorite actor I am pretty damn sure I have seen every film he has been in. I am also a 20 year Punisher fan so I am excited for this film. can't wait for a full trailer.

 

Aaron

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Guest AdminGuyX

I sincerely and whole heartedly disagree with the Vic Mackey, and Ray Liotta comments she posted on her blog.

 

That bothers me for a couple reasons. OK, the comments actually piss me off a little bit.

 

1. It feels like she's trying to take a shot at a certain writer, who did a certain draft or two of the script, who's taken a few shots of his own, and who's worked on The Shield. Maybe I'm stretching, but it was the first thing I thought of when I read the comment. I thought it was a cheap shot.

 

2. It tells me she doesn't really understand who Frank Castle is, or how he should be portrayed on screen. It's the kind of thing someone would say if they've flipped through the books but never actually read them. Which we already know is the case anyway. I'm trying not to hold this fact against the film . . .

 

BUT . . .

 

For better or worse, you have to READ the comic to really know the character. Maybe the fact that I've been reading The Punisher comics for 15 years might make be biased on that count. :) Dunno.

 

3. Her comments - to me - read like excuses. I know I'm probably being harsh (I'm far from a "hater" as I really enjoyed GSH and I am looking forward to seeing this regardless of the skittles color palette, I'm rooting for her bigtime) but this film needs to work, it needs to hit on all cylinders and be the punisher film that makes people like punisher films . . .

 

OR, we're never getting another chance. This is the third time they've tried to adapt it, if this fails it's goodbye Frankie boy for the cinema. I suppose unless Marvel gets the rights back and does it themselves, which hey, I think we know who to call if that happens . . . just saying.

 

I don't really need The Punisher to be "Ultra-realistic and gritty". Honestly though, what the fuck does that even mean? How is this defined exactly? If The Shield or Narc are really the definition of real and gritty . . . BAH . . . then we need to redefine some things, huh?

 

Vic Mackey is not Frank Castle. Not even close. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

 

Oak from Narc is NOT Frank Castle. Nope. Sorry. Shitty example. REALLY shitty example. It's like saying The Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are the same.

 

OK, maybe that was a shitty example. I'm tired. But I hope it gets my point across.

 

I can do stylized. I like stylized. But personally, I think "real and gritty" probably works best for Frank Castle, and for a good reason. For damn good reason. It fits the character to a fucking tee.

 

I think if you put Frank Castle into a film that looks like Saving Private Ryan, and moves like Street Kings and has the character based intensity of State of Grace, or hell, even HEAT, you're on the right track. But that's where you start. You don't make it those films, you don't steal your action scenes from those films, you make it THE PUNISHER. You take it beyond those movies, and beyond the comics, until it's a strong film of its own that honors the source material.

 

Every single bullet fired in a Punisher film should matter, and be felt by the audience, be wanted by the audience. As sick as that sounds.

 

No tricks, no bullshit, no jumping sideways with a gun in both hands or hanging upside down (in slow motion). It's not about body count, it's about that feeling in the pit of your gut, when you just know "This low life crud does not deserve to breath my air". You want every single person in the theater to feel what Frank feels. Every right index finger twitching when Frank fires a gun, because they should want him to kill these people as badly as he wants to kill these people. And it's not for no reason.

 

He's not killing for the thrill, or because he needs to cover his ass, or because it looks cool to ride a bike and shoot a gun in slow motion.

 

Ah shit . . . I just had a geek rant. Fuck . . .

 

Too tired to take it down now.

 

:) Hahahaha

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Yeah, I thought that was dig at Sutter too. I pretty much agree with everything you've said Noeland, going from the script I read the violence read more in the Marvel Knights over the top (and gory) comedy style (though from the trailer it would seem they took out the military crawl across the table, and thank god for that). And hasn't Ennis been writing the character in a more real world way than "comic book"?

 

Also, with that Narc comment, even though it's pointless at this point cause the movie is done but, I couldn't help but think Joe Carnahan would have been perfect for this movie. He did a gritty urban movie with Narc and then then the more stylized Smokin' Aces, you combine the two and I think that would have been perfect.

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Carnahan is a great director and I agree he could have done wonders with this. He was supposed to be on board to do M:I 3 but got screwed over on that. His next is a film about Pablo Escobar. If you read this guys blog you can see how much work and research he puts into a film before he goes ahead with making it. If he would put that same effort into a Punisher film then I could almost guarantee the movie we have all been waiting for.

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I dunno, for the vast majority of Punisher MAX comics, I've loved the colouring.

That says something about . . . you. ;)

 

The art has always been brilliant, and the colouring for me enhances rather than detracts from the art work.

I'm glad you dig it.

 

I believe Dan Brown did the colouring on most of Leandro Fernandez's art, right? I always thought he gave it an almost dark otherworldly quality that still maintained that "gritty realism".

I'll have to look at that again. I may be generalizing a bit. Maybe it's more the Knights series I'm thinking of. The colors I'm referring to are very possibly not Dan's. However, if he used a shitload of hot pink and other pastel garishness then he's in the guilty party as far as I'm concerned. Not that he deserves death by any means, just not tickling my own tender sensibilities ;)

 

And the colouring in Goran Parlov's last two arcs was great, much more simpler than the washed out look in Fernandez's arc, but it gives it a more noir look to me (the darker scenes, any scene set in sunlight never looked right from Parlov, but his stuff in Long, Cold Dark and Valley Forge, Valley Forge was great).

Again, these are two more recent examples and I'm talking further back. I'd have to go look at these to say for sure.

 

The colouring in The Cell was so great, moody muted colours and just great dark shadows everywhere.

The Cell or any of the one-shots are separate issues, not a part of the regular, of which I was speaking. I thought the Cell looked good.

 

The colours in MAX for me tend to show the world in a more twisted fashion, and that, I love.

I need to go back through the books to the point in which I threw up my hands to be more specific.

Generally I just don't like the ultra colored digital stuff that is so prevalent these days.

I'm not attempting to sell anyone else on my opinion. I'm just stating my own feelings on the subject.

Most of you guys are of a different generation so I don't expect you to rally 'round me.

For my taste, 70% of it is ass. Most of the good digital colorists were coloring before digital, they earned their chops by knowing color.

Guys like Dave Stewart should be knighted. All I ask in a colorist is that you don't step all over the line art, let it breathe, enhance it but don't turn it into a fucking video game with crazy effects, bad color choices, and hyper slickness.

 

If you want an example of how not to draw and colour a book, go give Punisher War Journal a read...

Haven't really even seen an issue. Matt Fraction is pretty talented but after skimming it in a shop it didn't take me long to figure out that version of The Punisher isn't for me.

- TB

 

Let's pick this up in the pinned Punisher thread if you want to talk/debate/scrutinize this further.

Back to Warzone -

 

 

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I think if you put Frank Castle into a film that looks like Saving Private Ryan, and moves like Street Kings and has the character based intensity of State of Grace, or hell, even HEAT, you're on the right track. But that's where you start. You don't make it those films, you don't steal your action scenes from those films, you make it THE PUNISHER. You take it beyond those movies, and beyond the comics, until it's a strong film of its own that honors the source material.

 

Every single bullet fired in a Punisher film should matter, and be felt by the audience, be wanted by the audience. As sick as that sounds.

 

No tricks, no bullshit, no jumping sideways with a gun in both hands or hanging upside down (in slow motion). It's not about body count, it's about that feeling in the pit of your gut, when you just know "This low life crud does not deserve to breath my air". You want every single person in the theater to feel what Frank feels. Every right index finger twitching when Frank fires a gun, because they should want him to kill these people as badly as he wants to kill these people. And it's not for no reason.

 

I agree with this whole heartedly.

- TB

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Noeland - An excellent way to sum up how things should be done with Frank Castle. Too bad people can't open up their fuckin minds like Jane was trying to explain and initiate!!!!!

 

 

-Raffi

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I'd like to take a moment to make a public apology to Steve Gainer, A.S.C.

Steve is the Director Of Photography on Warzone.

 

Passion about the art of Cinematography alone does not make one an expert. Please keep that in mind pursuant to my comments posted earlier in this thread .

I have a particular passion, but very little experience or knowledge of what the full scope of a DP's job entails. I spoke WAY out of line when sharing my thoughts about the color palette of Warzone when I suggested that the production give Geoff Boyle a call concerning film grading. I'm a fucking dunce. If I'd stopped and thought about what I was saying I would have realized how prodigiously offensive the comment would be to Steve Gainer. Steve is a guy with 20 years of expierience (30 feature films, over 300 music videos and commercials) to his credit. I didn't stop to think that the DP's job is not over when the shooting stops, that grading, color-timing, or other post production tweaks fall within the scope of Steve's (the DP's) territory. Stupidly, I had taken him out of the loop. I honestly meant no disrespect to Steve with that suggestion.

I offer this by way of an explanation, not an excuse.

 

In a letter to me Steve says -

"Sadly your comments have a profound effect on thousands of people's opinions, and your words have spread throughout the web, finally making their way to me via email from a distant friend."

 

For this I humbly apologize. As I mention, I am no expert on this subject. I spoke hastily and without regard to the scope of Steve's work.

And frankly, now that I actually THINK about what I stated I believe it's safe to say that if Geoff Boyle had gotten wind of this comment before Steve did he'd have jumped my ass himself.

 

Steve also mentions -

"That you would carelessly demean my artistic ability, not only with the color timing remark, but would judge my work on something that in motion pictures is comparable to a proof sheet in your field, is not acceptable to me."

 

And he has every right to be incensed.

 

My callous suggestion was out of line, uninformed, and stupid. Plain and simple.

 

 

I'd like to publicly offer my upmost apologies to Steve Gainer.

Also to the Warzone fans - pro/con, and to Lexi Alexander.

 

- Tim Bradstreet

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Wow, that's a lot of venom . . . .

 

Tim, that sucks.

You certainly aren't the first one to ever put your foot in your mouth via the web.

And I don't know you personally, but judging from many of the threads I've read here you don't really seem the type to take a left handed swing at another professional.

Indeed, you are normally extremely courteous in these matters. I trust Mr. Gainer will realize that.

 

Admitting that you overstepped the bounds of your own experience is a solid thing to do, especially in public.

 

Personally, I thought the trailer was pretty cool. I'm not necessarily a huge Punisher fan aside from your work on the covers and the stuff I read when I was growing up.

I really do love the character though, I'm just not all that biased by the comics. You mentioned before how cool that shot at the end of the trailer was.

I could not agree more.

 

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Guest FADoss

AND...keep in mind that the guy who does the trailer...generally does trailers for a living and has no other connection to the film. I know a couple of these guys. So...anyway...

 

Big of you to make the apology Tim, though I didn't find any of your remarks that demeaning...

 

Let's hope, for Steve's sake, that it's a good film...at least visually (which also falls on the editor). :)

 

Fred

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Guest AdminGuyX

Golgotha, have I told you yet how cool that avatar is?

 

;)

 

Now I have.

 

I do disagree that Tim put his foot in his mouth. I don't think he was wrong, just expressing his opinion as a fan, not a professional, and I don't think Steve understands that Tim is a fan too.

 

I think Steve has a lot riding on this film, and he's probably under a lot of pressure, and hey, who doesn't want Tim to like thier work? Everybody wants Tim to not just like but LOVE their stuff, especially when the Punisher is the subject matter.

 

Also, not surprised Tim apologized. He's the kind of guy that's always going to put feelings above opinion, and clearly guys, he hurt Steve's feelings on a personal level and didn't mean to. I think apologizing is the right thing to do here.

 

It's a consideration when you express your opinion that feelings might get hurt. Some times we make comments without regarding feelings, and some of us do it a lot. :) I know I'm guilty of it. I mean to say, you don't always know how important your opinion is to some people until you hurt thier feelings with it.

 

Make sense?

 

But there isn't a damn thing wrong with constructive critisism, which is really I think, what Tim was giving.

 

Hopefully Steve will consider what Tim posted in that capacity too, because Tim's not wrong. The film's color is completely overwhelming and incredibly distracting. It takes away from the trailer for me.

 

I also disagree that trailers are the same as a proof sheet. They are not, but at the same time, I understand his point. He makes a good point, I hope that means they intend to tone down those colors for the release. I think that would be a smart move.

 

I know it's bad form to disagree with quotes made in an apology like that, but if Steve is reading this thread, I'd like to invite him to post. I don't mean that as some kind of challenge, but as a friendly invitation to tell us more about this film, and if he wants to call us a bunch of whiny fanboys, he can do that too. :)

 

Frankly, I appreciate that they tried to give the film some style and panache. I think that was a good idea. It's just, I'm choking on the panache a little.

 

I'm not of the mind that you need to be an expert to have an opinion. I think the beauty of opinions are that anybody can form them, express them, etc.

 

Anyway, I'm still gonna see the film, and in fact I'm looking forward to seeing the film now more than I was before.

 

Isn't that odd, how that shit works out like that?

 

:)

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As always, Noeland chimes in with a fair elucidation.

 

Thanks too, you others. But I'm not looking for any atta-boys or slaps on the back for apologizing to Steve.

It was simply the right thing to do. I was wrong to make the suggestion and the apology was heart felt, as it was not my intention to imply that Steve wasn't capable or should be taken out of the process.

 

That said, I stand by my comments about the color. That is my aesthetic opinion. It also was never meant to demean (as Noeland so rightly smoked).

It was purely a constructive appraisal. Possibly it sounds otherwise coming from a forum thread but when I talk about stuff like this I'm talking from the heart and from my own 22 years of experience - from the holster on my hip. The world of The Punisher is a world I know very well. And here's the thing . . .

In my opinion the current color palette can only hurt the film, whereas desaturating it - Not completely - I'm talking toning, tweaking it down, not turning the film grey ;)

. . . Whereas desaturating it can only help in my estimation. Ratcheting down the color a notch is not going to offend the people who wouldn't mind the hot color.

But I do think that hot palette would be distracting to a larger percentage of the audience. Garth used a title recently, "Long, Cold, Dark" That not only describes the Punisher's world but it also very accurately describes what it must have been like to shoot in Montreal in November and December ;) That's as simple as I can put it.

 

Maybe I'm wrong for posting my opinion. Perhaps if I had made these feelings known through proper channels it wouldn't seem like an outsider trying to call these decisions into question. But also let it be known that I am not attempting to derail the film by making these remarks. I'm trying to help. Like many have said, color aside they will see the film anyway.

 

I don't post on this forum as my own personal soap box. I am not attempting to preach the word in a sad attempt to get folks to pay attention to me.

I post here because I love to interact with people who share many of my same passions, and to talk openly about these things. There is no ulterior motive.

 

Noeland hit it on the head. I am a fan AND a professional. It's like a split personality with one persona warring with the other at times.

Right now the fan is out to lunch.

 

- TB

 

Edit - PS - And when I mention toning the color down on the film I do not mean the WHOLE film. I mean in key places.

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Well tell him to come back from lunch. This is a Message Board dammit. Seriously though, it's nice to hear both sides from you Tim. The professional and the fan. Good to see the different and some times contrasting view points. Hopefully it doesn't sound like im gushing.

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Speaking of color the way you do here Tim seems very sensible to me.

And an opinion worth considering.

I know that the first film came under a lot of fire for being shot and located in Florida. A whole lot of fire.

Meaning no disrespect to the Warzone prodcution, my thought then is why would you want to make Montreal look like Miami at night?

You have a great city to double for NY. It should feel like NY and it doesn't. Mostly because of the "hot color" as you describe it. It feels like an episode of CSI Miami at night.

CSIM may not be the most realistic show but it IS beautifully shot. And that is my point here. The stuff we've seen in the trailer looks too slick and beautiful.

I think Tim makes a wise observation with respect to the colors versus the tone and feel of a Punisher atmosphere.

The film should fit the tone of the lead character, at least when he is onscreen. I understand that certain locations, certain other characters would necessarily need a different scheme. Jigsaw and his surroundings, for example should have a different feel, etc.... But I guess it's too early for any of us to really know what the film on the whole will look like.

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And I wanted to add something after re-reading my last post there. I don't want anyone to think I think Steve is wrong either. I don't. I do understand his POV. When I posted "Tim is not wrong" I do not mean to say that Steve is. I agree with Tim, Steve had every right to contact him and say "hey, what the fuck?".

 

I just hope if Steve comes back here and reads this stuff and maybe chimes in. I for one would absolutely LOVE his input and opinion. Even if all he says is "Screw you bunch of naysayers" or "taste my rainbow you fat fuck" (I had a bag of skittles as a snack today too)

 

;)

 

I don't know Steve Gainer's work, I checked his IMDB page, and outside of war zone and some music videos I haven't seen a thing he's shot before

 

I watched a movie trailer I've been waiting for, and reacted honestly to a film I want to like, and a character I want to be successful, and work well on screen.

 

OK, enough of my bullshit . . .

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