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Tim Bradstreet

The Punisher: WarZone

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well i wouldn't condemn ray stevenson just because he's not thomas jane :lol: i've never seen rome, only clips, but the guy looks like he'll do ok for castle. the thing that doesn't excite me about the new film is the story (if what people have been saying is true) and the amount of characters they're going to cram into it.

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You know, it's interesting that you bring up the cigarette boat scene... I personally thought it was a complete waste that he blew up the boat, looks at John Saint, and then goes home. To quote Lex Luthor... "WRRRRRROOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGG!" This is the problem that Chuck Dixon perfectly identified when he gave his opinion of the movie... Castle pulls his punches time after time. So you're not a purist... okay, I get that... but the one thing an adaptation NEEDS from the comics is that when he latches on to a target, he doesn't let go. The cool, bad-ass, unrelenting military specialist from the comics would've been ready with an AK (or the M4 from the movie that was actually pretty sweet) and been shooting up the beach the instant the bomb went off. If he'd done his job (no errors, no screw-ups, no mistakes - his mantra from the Year One comic that Hensleigh so briefly tried to use) the trees would've been rigged with trip wires for the baddies to run in to as they fled the gunfire.

 

He managed to get inside Quentin Glass' house... and what did he do? He left an ear ring on the bed. NO! Just no. If he managed to get inside this guy's house... a completely unprotected scumbag who was there helping to kill his family... hed've been waiting with the shotgun, not jewelry. Now if he had done the ear ring thing to simply lure Howard Saint there... well, I'd get that. The two top guys who planned his family's execution? No guards? He shouldn't have been lurking around outside, he should've been in the house filling them up with lead.

 

This was a movie about an angry alcoholic toying with the idea of taking revenge, not a movie about a soldier waging war against crime. If they wanted to do a movie about Castle trying venues other than murder... Hensleigh had Year One in his hands. Castle tried the cops (their superiors were in bed with the criminals,) he tried the media (not strong enough to fight organized crime,) and then the bastards had the balls to take away the one thing he had left... they blew up his family home (it was Billy Russo who did it too, just one reason why people would like Jigsaw in the movie.) With nothing left in the WORLD to cling to except for his gun, he snaps and sends one hell of a message... he doesn't screw around with ear rings, parking tickets, voice changers, and blackmail photos.

 

Anything other than a soldier waging war isn't the Punisher.

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You know, it's interesting that you bring up the cigarette boat scene... I personally thought it was a complete waste that he blew up the boat, looks at John Saint, and then goes home. To quote Lex Luthor... "WRRRRRROOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGG!" This is the problem that Chuck Dixon perfectly identified when he gave his opinion of the movie... Castle pulls his punches time after time. So you're not a purist... okay, I get that... but the one thing an adaptation NEEDS from the comics is that when he latches on to a target, he doesn't let go. The cool, bad-ass, unrelenting military specialist from the comics would've been ready with an AK (or the M4 from the movie that was actually pretty sweet) and been shooting up the beach the instant the bomb went off. If he'd done his job (no errors, no screw-ups, no mistakes - his mantra from the Year One comic that Hensleigh so briefly tried to use) the trees would've been rigged with trip wires for the baddies to run in to as they fled the gunfire.

 

He managed to get inside Quentin Glass' house... and what did he do? He left an ear ring on the bed. NO! Just no. If he managed to get inside this guy's house... a completely unprotected scumbag who was there helping to kill his family... hed've been waiting with the shotgun, not jewelry. Now if he had done the ear ring thing to simply lure Howard Saint there... well, I'd get that. The two top guys who planned his family's execution? No guards? He shouldn't have been lurking around outside, he should've been in the house filling them up with lead.

 

This was a movie about an angry alcoholic toying with the idea of taking revenge, not a movie about a soldier waging war against crime. If they wanted to do a movie about Castle trying venues other than murder... Hensleigh had Year One in his hands. Castle tried the cops (their superiors were in bed with the criminals,) he tried the media (not strong enough to fight organized crime,) and then the bastards had the balls to take away the one thing he had left... they blew up his family home (it was Billy Russo who did it too, just one reason why people would like Jigsaw in the movie.) With nothing left in the WORLD to cling to except for his gun, he snaps and sends one hell of a message... he doesn't screw around with ear rings, parking tickets, voice changers, and blackmail photos.

 

Anything other than a soldier waging war isn't the Punisher.

I completely agree.

 

It's like he was bored and had nothing better to do so he plays with dolls, haha.

 

He should have taken 'em out. It was too drawn out.

 

They should have all been dead under an hour. There should have been blood hitting the walls, the shit hitting the fan.

 

For example, the scene in Desperado, El Mariachi walks in, it goes south and BOOM. People are flying everywhere, blood, guts, ammo, guns, in your face and gritty. That's how it should have been throughout the whole movie. Not, um I think I'll plant this here, carry a fire hydrant around and mess with a gay guy at a clothing store. What the fuck?!@? Then, I understand the whole pulling the gravestone up, but shit, do somethin' with it. Don't put it on the fuckin' golf course, implant it in the motherfucker's skull and light him on fire. Shit. It should have been harsh, fuck it, raw, gritty, blood, don't take your kids to see this film kinda movie. Not a, oh this is so cute how he messes with the gay guy who killed his wife and son and then he puts that very nice earring there, how cute. God!!!

 

JO

 

 

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Thomas I bow down to you. Great post.

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Gentlemen, gentlemen. Apparently both of yous, are pro assault mode. Pro "don't just kill the guy, cook him". That's FUCKIN cool! But it's not the point. IT IS NOT. Hensleigh didn't want John Rambo to be Frank Castle, he wanted a true angel of death. If Frank had just killed Saint at Glass' house, it woulda been mundane. Instead, he took EVERYTHING from him: Love, family, loyalty from his friends. Everything. And the truth of the matter is, the Frank Castle of P1 was NOT out to wage war on crime. He wanted one thing: to emotionally and physically PUNISH Howard Saint and the Saint clan. Now let me tell you somethin about the threat of force. If some motherfucker wrongs me - kills my cat, robs my apartment, fucks my woman, etc - I'd be left with two methods of payback. A: I crack his head open with a bat or perform any number of violent acts towards him. Or B: I go to his house, while he's sleepin in his bed, shoot him with a dart, lay him in his front lawn, and burn the house to the fuckin ground (TOTAL jail sentence) Which one would really FUCK with him? its self-explanatory. Fear is ten times harder to deal with than frontal assault. A threat is dangerous, a gunshot is absolute. Why do ya think we have the life sentence in our prisons? Some of these assholes aren't cut out to live in society, yet we keep 'em alive and fed. Point being, dying would really be setting them free, its makin them live in shit for the rest of their lives that truly PUNISHES them. If all you seek is ten thousand rounds being fired and a body count higher than a hundred, then yeah. Go see Disaster Zone. Just remember one thing: Those elements don't require writing, just spending. What Frank did to Howard Saint was a thousand times nastier than just poppin him in the head an hour into the film, and I'm fuckin convinced, that was the reason TJ liked the script. For Disaster Zone, he was presented with a boat-load of kills, but no heart. Smart move walkin, TJ. Smart fuckin move.

-TL

 

Actually, Jane said they weren't going dark enough... he specifically said once that he liked the "kick-ass" stuff, and hinted that the new movie would be like the end of the first one in terms of fighting. Look, I'm not gonna beat the thing to death -- what you like isn't what Gerry Conway sat down and created, and you pretty much already admitted you don't like the comic. I'm sorry that you won't enjoy or probably even see the movie... I will do both. So I'm comfortable leaving it at that.

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Guest AdminGuyX

Oh, see, now we're getting down to what we took away from the film versus what other people did. And I mean the royal "we" that's not directed at anyone in particular.

 

This is different than how the film adapted the comic book, or how the character was written for the film, versus for the comic. I think it is anyway.

 

Yes, he wasn't waging a war on crime in the movie, but he wasn't really waging a war on anyone in the film. He was trying to "trick" Howard Saint into thinking his friend and his wife were cheating behind his back. That's all, just trick the man. Fool him into believing something that wasn't true, and then kill him. But he was going to kill him all along regardless of if Saint was fooled or not (and to be honest I thought he was fooled quite easily). He wasn't trying to trick him, and then let him live in that misery for 20 years.

 

The Punisher went to some pretty oddball lengths to trick Howard Saint at that, and at the end of the day, narratively speaking, it was a real stretch to watch it all, because you knew were it was going all along. You knew Frank Castle was going to shoot Howard Saint. Had there been some element of mystery to his actions, it might have paid off, but there was no mystery in the film whatsoever, so the inevitable confrontation was a bit flat when it finally happened, because the events leading up to the confrontation were not compelling enough.

 

You saw what Hensliegh had The Punisher doing on a much different level than I did TL. Like I said, I understood what they were trying to do with the hijinks, what they were trying to achieve. The "taking everything from Castle" thing was obvious as hell, Saint even says it. OK. Nothing to figure out there, so after that it has to be compelling right? It has to be intense character work, cat and mouse, something bold, something smart. There has to be some kind of story hook beyond two men trying to take everything from each other unless their motives are secret. If their motives are obvious, then narratively speaking you're just watching them run in circles. You need another element to make it all work, and there has to be some basic logic at work too. I had a problem that Saint was so easily duped. The story hinged on him being duped, and I'm not sure most folks wouldn't see through it. Especially given that Frank Castle was after him, you'd think he would say to himself at some point "hey, I've never seen my best friend with a woman before in all our lives, and hey, I just took everything from that Frank Castle guy, and he hasn't done anything to me yet . . . wait a second! " cue music: DUN DUN DUN!

 

I'm half kidding, because one of things I haven't mentioned yet is that I don't take the film all that seriously either. I don't feel it was as poetic as you do TL, I felt it was hamfisted. The idea behind it might have been interesting, but the execution of the idea could have been done differently, yes, I feel done better, and much more dramatically. The family death squad scene being shot in stark daylight just felt like a TV movie to me with really low production value at that. That was a big deal, and guys in black T-shirts and pleated slacks shooting people at a picnic, well that played poorly for me. But I still LIKED the idea that Saint was going after Castle in that way.

 

Damn, does that make sense? I hope so.

 

Personally, I'd of like to have seen Frank and his Dad in action together for longer. When Roy Schieder and Tom Jane were on screen in his Dad's office, that was two world class actors plying their trade, and I loved it. They had perfect chemistry. They could have been reading each other the phone book, and that scene would have worked because of those two actors, to have them working together against Saint for a while might have been really cool. But, a totally different film! :)

 

But, man, this does seems a little like kicking a dead horse, doesn't it? I think you're right Kevin. But I guess since we really don't have anything to chat about with the second film, other than how we feel about it in general, we're kind of stuck a little chatting about how it applies.

 

And I'm compelled to add this. TL, you've posted in other threads now what kind of violence you're capable of if someone crosses you. It's cool that you're not a coward or a pussy. I understand you have a violent nature, and that you are capable and willing to hurt people. I would really like to move past that if possible man, and just chat about the subjects at hand, and not how you'd burn down someone's house if they killed your cat. That really bothers me to read, because you seem like a cool guy, and honestly, you seem way smarter than that. Unless you're just kidding around and I'm not getting the humor. In that case, just forgot I mentioned it. :)

 

I gotta believe you're not intentionally posting about violence you'd commit for any other purpose to prove a point. At least I hope not man, because this seems to be a pretty laid back crowd around here, and I think we're all cool folks, but none of us are The Punisher.

 

Well, correction, one of us was The Punisher in a movie once, but he hardly ever posts, being a movie star and all. :) But he still counts!

 

HEY, here is a subject I'd like to discuss for sequel land.

 

Barracuda.

 

Discuss:

 

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HEY, here is a subject I'd like to discuss for sequel land.

 

Barracuda.

 

Discuss:

 

I'm not sure about that yet... I can say I'd feel safer about it if it's the Barracuda from the newest story, and not the past two stories of his. He's so psychotic and menacing... willing to kill a kid, I mean... damn. So depending on how the newest movie goes, and how Barracuda looks in the end of this story (good character or played out stereotype) I think an on-screen brawl between Castle and 'cuda would definitely be in order.

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Oh, see, now we're getting down to what we took away from the film versus what other people did. And I mean the royal "we" that's not directed at anyone in particular.

 

This is different than how the film adapted the comic book, or how the character was written for the film, versus for the comic. I think it is anyway.

 

Yes, he wasn't waging a war on crime in the movie, but he wasn't really waging a war on anyone in the film. He was trying to "trick" Howard Saint into thinking his friend and his wife were cheating behind his back. That's all, just trick the man. Fool him into believing something that wasn't true, and then kill him. But he was going to kill him all along regardless of if Saint was fooled or not (and to be honest I thought he was fooled quite easily). He wasn't trying to trick him, and then let him live in that misery for 20 years.

 

The Punisher went to some pretty oddball lengths to trick Howard Saint at that, and at the end of the day, narratively speaking, it was a real stretch to watch it all, because you knew were it was going all along. You knew Frank Castle was going to shoot Howard Saint. Had there been some element of mystery to his actions, it might have paid off, but there was no mystery in the film whatsoever, so the inevitable confrontation was a bit flat when it finally happened, because the events leading up to the confrontation were not compelling enough.

 

You saw what Hensliegh had The Punisher doing on a much different level than I did TL. Like I said, I understood what they were trying to do with the hijinks, what they were trying to achieve. The "taking everything from Castle" thing was obvious as hell, Saint even says it. OK. Nothing to figure out there, so after that it has to be compelling right? It has to be intense character work, cat and mouse, something bold, something smart. There has to be some kind of story hook beyond two men trying to take everything from each other unless their motives are secret. If their motives are obvious, then narratively speaking you're just watching them run in circles. You need another element to make it all work, and there has to be some basic logic at work too. I had a problem that Saint was so easily duped. The story hinged on him being duped, and I'm not sure most folks wouldn't see through it. Especially given that Frank Castle was after him, you'd think he would say to himself at some point "hey, I've never seen my best friend with a woman before in all our lives, and hey, I just took everything from that Frank Castle guy, and he hasn't done anything to me yet . . . wait a second! " cue music: DUN DUN DUN!

 

I'm half kidding, because one of things I haven't mentioned yet is that I don't take the film all that seriously either. I don't feel it was as poetic as you do TL, I felt it was hamfisted. The idea behind it might have been interesting, but the execution of the idea could have been done differently, yes, I feel done better, and much more dramatically. The family death squad scene being shot in stark daylight just felt like a TV movie to me with really low production value at that. That was a big deal, and guys in black T-shirts and pleated slacks shooting people at a picnic, well that played poorly for me. But I still LIKED the idea that Saint was going after Castle in that way.

 

Damn, does that make sense? I hope so.

 

Personally, I'd of like to have seen Frank and his Dad in action together for longer. When Roy Schieder and Tom Jane were on screen in his Dad's office, that was two world class actors plying their trade, and I loved it. They had perfect chemistry. They could have been reading each other the phone book, and that scene would have worked because of those two actors, to have them working together against Saint for a while might have been really cool. But, a totally different film! :)

 

But, man, this does seems a little like kicking a dead horse, doesn't it? I think you're right Kevin. But I guess since we really don't have anything to chat about with the second film, other than how we feel about it in general, we're kind of stuck a little chatting about how it applies.

 

And I'm compelled to add this. TL, you've posted in other threads now what kind of violence you're capable of if someone crosses you. It's cool that you're not a coward or a pussy. I understand you have a violent nature, and that you are capable and willing to hurt people. I would really like to move past that if possible man, and just chat about the subjects at hand, and not how you'd burn down someone's house if they killed your cat. That really bothers me to read, because you seem like a cool guy, and honestly, you seem way smarter than that. Unless you're just kidding around and I'm not getting the humor. In that case, just forgot I mentioned it. :)

 

I gotta believe you're not intentionally posting about violence you'd commit for any other purpose to prove a point. At least I hope not man, because this seems to be a pretty laid back crowd around here, and I think we're all cool folks, but none of us are The Punisher.

 

Well, correction, one of us was The Punisher in a movie once, but he hardly ever posts, being a movie star and all. :) But he still counts!

 

HEY, here is a subject I'd like to discuss for sequel land.

 

Barracuda.

 

Discuss:

Couldn't agree more man, I think the fire hydrant thing has scarred me for life :angry:

 

But anyway, back to Barracuda, haha man I just hear the song goin' in my head, ohhhh Barracudaaaa, haha.

 

Who do you think they should get to play him if they ever did create and put him in an actual movie?

 

Tough decision, they'd probably end up getting Sam Jackson ahaha, he'd get Frank, put him in a chair and do this, "What?!?! SAY WHAT AGAIN, I DARE YA, I DOUBLE DOG DARE YA MOTHAFUCKA SAY WHAT AGAIN!!!!" haha only jokin' of course.

 

Honestly, I think they should go for the goods, and don't get mr. Will-bigears-Smith either. I'm so sick of hearing about him and how they butchered I AM LEGEND.

 

I think they should get an unknown possibly, someone to come into their own. Someone who is scary as hell, can act and get the job done. Don't know, have to sleep on it and come back later.

 

JO

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I'm with the group that thinks the fire hydrant was stupid. But then I think that Travolta's character was stupid. Tom Jane is what makes that movie worth watching, (and I've watched TJ's PUNISHER at least a half dozen times) without him I can't get past all the flaws. I don't think it was creative writing, I think it was bad writing and it may have been bad writing that chased him away from WAR ZONE. Who would want to do that again?

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Here's the deal with the script for the next Punisher movie...

 

Jane quit when the most recent draft was Kurt Sutter's. If he left because of a script, it was that version. At least one of the script reviews was from that same script. Since then, Marcum and Holloway have revised it. Lexi Alexander has revised it, though it's unclear if that was before or after the Marcum/Holloway revision (one of her versions was also reviewed.) It's not the same script that Tom Jane walked away from anymore.

 

He never said anything about it not having a center. He has said a dozen times that he wanted something like "Taxi Driver" (which has been clarified as meaning a movie with a dark tone, NOT a movie about a delusional social misfit.) Jane has said he originally took the role in the 04 movie because (I quote) "Shit, man, this is Taxi Driver!" He also said he wanted more hand to hand combat in the movie, if I remember right. Kurt Sutter, on the subject of Tom/Marvel/LGF, also wrote that Tom wanted "Travis F*cking Bickel" from the script. He has made it clear too many times to misunderstand how he felt. He wanted it dark. It was reported multiple times from writers that the studio wouldn't accept their drafts because they were too bloody, and Sutter made it very clear that on the other side stood TJ.

 

Have you read the review from IESB? It's a joke, I wouldn't have written that trash if I was in High School. It just bashes the movie without actually giving reasons, other than thoughtless ramblings like "it's too much like Batman."

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First, let me clarify,

 

I am not saying the debate about the Fire Hydrant is stupid, I'm saying the whole fire hydrant scene is stupid. And I support that point of view. Writing wise there was just a lot of bad stuff in the movie. My point is I am a fan of the PUNISHER, I am also a fan of Thomas Jane, so I can watch this movie.

 

Now here is my next point, remembering I am a fan of PUNISHER, I am also a fan of Ray Stevenson, because of his role as Titus in ROME. I think he was incredible in ROME and if you didn't see it then you missed a damn good show and some damn good performances.

 

So BULLSHIT, CRAP SCRIPT, ASSHOLE DIRECTOR and BUTTHEADED STUDIO EXECS aside... I'll go see WAR ZONE for the same reasons I went to see The original piece of Junk with Lundgren in it, I'm a fan.

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JO I'm honestly surprised with your disgust for the fire hydrant. Dude who gives a shit? A fucking fire hydrant gimmick "scarred you for life"? I must deem you overcritical - no way around that. Noeland brought it up, but didn't make it the seed of destruction for his experience watchin TJ's Punisher. The one thing I DO NOT do when watching a film, is get fixated on pointless garbage that doesn't take away from the story. And guys you know what, what IS the problem with the fire hydrant??? How the fuck was Frank gonna jack the car for 2 hours and be able to park it right back were it was in the first place? And don't give me that "it doesn't matter, he shoulda just blown up the car B.S.). Hensleigh figured out a way to keep that parking spot open. THAT'S ALL. Its called creative writing. How does it take jack shit from the actual storyline??? And Kev, when you mentioned TJ said he "liked" the material in the second one because it kicked off were the first one left off, were you insinuating he thought the script for Disaster Zone was good? Dude, why are we having this discussion then? Because TJ wasn't doing a movie with no center. Just because he wanted to do action sequences in P2, doesn't mean he wanted mindless bullshit throughout the entire picture. I AM SAD to hear all this negative feedback on the true Punisher film, specially over small insignificant crap. Somebody please read the reviews for Disaster Zone's script online and start picking on that.

-TL

Haha, no bro. While I didn't like it. I was joking. I'm just havin' some fun. Not being critical about anything.

 

-JO

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IESB aren't the only ones that have posted a script for Disaster Zone. And regardless of whatever billion changes have been made to it, the same dickhead story remains intact: Don Cesare wants to run an "organized" mob, while Billy Russo wants to barter with taliban sons of bitches. Frank kills an undercover cop thinkin the guy worked for Russo, and somehow fucks up Russo's mug during the first act. This plot was first introduced by Jonathan Hensleigh on June 13, 2005.

 

I read the Hensleigh draft. Hensleigh didn't have the Taliban plotline. There was no undercover cop story in Hensleigh's script.

 

Russo came from Boston and didn't show up until Cesare was dead (he was written as an amalgam between the comic Russo and Nicky Cavella.) Hensleigh's second hero was an FBI agent named Stephanie West. Jigsaw wound up kidnapping her law-professor father to coerce her in to returning evidence that pinned a murder on him. Russo's face wasn't damaged until 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the movie, after Castle has been taking out targets that Russo anonymously gave him. Now THAT is crap. Anyway, Castle shows up, shoots Pittsy and gets shot himself in the process, and in self defense kicks a swinging mirror right through Russo's face. It ends in a confrontation at Wal-Mart (yes, "Wal-Mart" is named in the script... the final fight is in Jersey.)

 

It began the horror of Warzone, which even Hensleigh himself dropped out of. Even the scene that Hensleigh wrote to open the film, is still in "Lexi Alexander's" October script.

 

As described, it's been heavily modified... Castle originally showed up with a friggin' mini-gun and blew everybody away before escaping in his car and running from the cops. The new scene sounds much more "hands on" without an invincible weapon like a mini-gun... kill by kill.

 

They were in Pre-pro in September, so there's no fucking way they changed the hole storyline 6 weeks before principal photography.

 

I don't think anybody's read anything newer than August... at least somebody on SHH said that was the latest version they'd read (it was the same version as the third script reviewer's.)

 

THIS STORY HAS SUCKED for 2 years!!! And Kurt Sutter can blow me. He tried to pin TJ's departure on money issues and political hippie bullshit.

 

Money, yeah... I called Sutter on that too, I think Tom is bigger than that. I agree with you 100%.

 

And I don't blame these guys that wrote that butcher review on Disaster Zone, because the Jigsaw concept is pretty played out: confident guy gets ugly, so now he's gonna declare war on the world. Its been done before Kev, you must know this! Must I post a picture of Jack Nicholson as the Joker???

 

Who said Jigsaw went to war with the world? Him being a pretty-boy bastard, I'd expect he'd just go after whoever ruined his precious good looks.

 

The character is a total comic book stereotype. Barracuda is ten times more original and worth putting on screen. These morons wanted a "cool" disfigured villain. A stone-cold murderer woulda been SO much more prominent.

-TL

 

He was the Punisher's first nemesis... he appears in a Spider-Man comic with one of Nightcrawler's early appearances. If you want to see how different he is from the Joker, go read the second Batman vs. Punisher comic... where he teams up with the Joker. You'll note just a few differences. He's not a joke teller, a psycho, or a happy killer... he's just a mean bastard who loves power and money... sure, he hates the Punisher to varying degrees depending on who writes for him, but must of the time he's actually learned NOT to get in Castle's way. He's an opportunistic but easily angered mobster, the Joker is a clown super villain... important difference.

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Fine. Jigsaw has enough comic background to make himself an interesting choice for a Punisher villain. Is it the best way to go at this point? I don't think so. And I'll be sayin this again (JO and me had a talk about this earlier), with Dark Knight comin out in July, sporting 2 uglies - the entire concept of bringin in Jigsaw is damn repetitive. LGF and Hensleigh knew that the second modern Batman film (at the time untitled) would re-intro the Joker (who cares if at heart they're different)

 

Predicting what the "average person" thinks is a pretty tricky task, but with that disclaimer I'll go ahead and follow the discussion in to those murky waters.

 

I'm not terribly worried about the people who can't figure out the difference between two characters who have been disfigured one way or another at the hands of the hero... if Jigsaw is portrayed as he is in the comics, a person would be just a touch dull not to understand. If he does turn out to be written like the Joker in this movie... then shame on the War Zone team, they'd be missing the character. I am 99% sure they won't make him a jovial, dancing, city-threatening madman. Sure, he'll probably become even more violent than he was before, but we're talking about an already amoral guy just letting his rage out.

 

yet they still proceeded to make him the film's antagonist. Now, to the defense of Jonathan Hensleigh (a fellow Peckinpah and Leone follower), he DID NOT know, that P2 would run into problems the way it did, and expected it to hit theatres in 2006, not '07 which WB had announced B2 would be released in. What fucking bugs me, is that when the re-write marathon of the century occured on Disaster Zone, no-one for a second said: "how about we do somethin that won't be old news when the REGULAR people (not purists or fans) go see it?"

 

The string of rewrites was just set up to please all parties involved... you've got to get the actors, the studio, and the director to agree SOMEHOW. I suspect when a dozen people are involved in the creative process, by neccessity it becomes a matter of bargaining... otherwise it won't happen at all, and that's what almost happened with this movie.

 

Do I think TJ would have prefered to stay away from Jigsaw? Yes. I were in his shoes in May this year, I would wanna distance myself from any remnants of the old storyline (Walmart or no Walmart, Talibans or no Talibans).

 

I wouldn't assume how he felt about Jigsaw without more information but okay, I see where you're coming from. I also don't particularly care for the department store brawl idea, or the terrorist angle... but seeing as we all gave the original ideas in the 2004 movie a chance, I think it's fair to give the original ideas in this movie a chance too.

 

There is this fixation that Frank needs a guy like Jigsaw in order to have a second film. THAT'S A CROCK OF SHIT! Frank is a fucking vigilante. VIGILANTE. His villains are dope dealers, pimps, gang-bangers, crips, pedophiles, guys rippin off Medicare, etc. He doesn't require some cartoony assface to blow US away on the big screen.

 

Jigsaw's a fan favorite. I agree 100% that the studio didn't HAVE to pick Jigsaw, but they were pretty much up against the wall to use a villain from the comics. John Travolta's original villain character came under a lot of fire for not being recognizable or even threatening enough. But when you sit down at the drawing board and narrow down the list of villains, Jigsaw's name creeps right up to the top of the list... he is more memorable than Howard Saint and he is way more threatening (at least, his comic version is.) From purely a creative point of view, NO particular villain is an "absolute must" for this movie... Jigsaw just happens to be an incredibly valid character for them to use.

 

LGF and Marvel apparently cared more about there bitch story than about Frank himself (a guy named Thomas Jane).

 

He was awesome as Frank Castle. It was his choice to leave and I'm not saying it was the wrong choice for him personally. Still, I'm a fan of the character first and foremost... I'm ready to move on is all. We're past the point of no return. Frank Castle is Frank Castle, no matter who plays him or how awesome they are/were in the role.

 

His approval meant dick to them. They were too lazy to start over and produce something fresh that would accomodate the talent (a guy named Thomas Jane). And they gave 3 shits about the other comic flicks that would hit the same year as theirs. Its NOT them being confident, its fucking stupidity on their part.

 

I agree that his approval should have meant more. Tom knows LOADS more about the Punisher than the studio ever could... to borrow a phrase from Adam Johnson (ThePunisher.com), the studio really stepped on its dick here. Tom came to the fans and surveyed us about what movies we felt the Punisher 2 should sit next to... and the list was awesome. Stuff like Heat, Reservoir Dogs, The Professional, Escape from New York, etc... and they pretty much ignored him. So I fully recognize that in the world of cinema, Punisher: War Zone will never be ranked with those movies. But I also know it will be way closer to what I wanted than the last movie was, in terms of style and plot.

 

God bless the studio for not worrying about what other movies are coming out... that is marketing's job. Did Nolan consider what other movies were coming out? How about Raimi? When you do something (and this applies to everybody, not just studio execs and producers) you have to determine your own scale of whether you are doing it right or wrong. You check your own capabilities, and you set aspirations that you don't 100% expect to achieve. It's always better to worry about what YOU are doing, not what your competitors are doing. Yes, in the movie world you can't release a movie that you know people won't see, but in theory if you just work your hardest to make a good movie, people will show up. The worst thing a studio can do is make a movie compete with another big release in the same weekend... aside from that, there's absolutely no need to compare the movies except for us comic book nerds.

 

What happens to the average joe that just wants to see a movie with his buddies or his woman? He watches Batman in July and has a blast. Then come a few months later, and he walks into Disaster Zone. He already knows all the ridiculous drama surrounding this film, so he's a little iffy on how it's gonna be. He starts watching it, and sees what? ANOTHER villain that's been facially deformed. He keeps watching it for the sake of his $8, and after exiting the theatre says to himself: "Oh well." That entire scenario is the way Frank Castle will die when this film hits theatres. I've seen it so many times, but never thought it could happen to Frank.

-TL

 

Again, I have a hard time pegging Joe Average, but I think trailers and marketing have a much bigger impact than "drama." If there's a good trailer, he wants to see the movie. If there's a bad trailer, he might not go at all. Sure, the movie could be better or worse than its advertising, but until the film is made, how can we decide whether it's a well made movie or not? Assuming they don't run the movie up against another big movie in the first week or two that it comes out, I believe Frank comes out better than he ever has before... simply by tapping in to the extended fan base that got a kick out of the last movie on DVD.

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Guest AdminGuyX

OK, too much for me to reply to from work, so it'll have to wait until I get home, turn on some loud music, and maybe draw a few pages first. But my replies will be GOLDEN, and very funny.

 

Just you wait!

 

I plum forgot to check this thread back since my last post. And TL, the horse is mush now bud, a gut pile, it's just a heaping, smoking, twitching pile of eviscerated mush.

 

:) hahahaha.

 

About to get mushier . . .

 

 

later on.

 

:)

 

 

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