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Tim Bradstreet

The Punisher: WarZone

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Guest AdminGuyX
When I was talking about the suppressive fire you proved my point, its known as a guerrilla tactic and is often NOT used by trained professionals yet it is still known as one of the most effective tools a smaller force can use against a much larger army.

 

I did not prove your point. What you posted above is inaccurate. The tactic was designed by professional soldiers, to be used by professionals. Suppressive fire isn't known as a guerrilla tactic, and is in fact used by larger forces to keep smaller forces busy while they flank, and then overcome them.

 

It's only an effective tool for a smaller force if the smaller force is retreating, or attempting to manuever to cover. Even then.

 

My point was simply that at no point in the trailer does Frank Castle use suppressive fire. It's impossible for one person to use suppressive fire, because the entire point of the tactic is to hold your ground, fire on the enemy, and allow other units to move freely while you fire.

 

Then, they in turn do the same for you, and you reload and move while they fire.

 

Not only does Frank have completely unparalleled talent,ability, and expertise in the art of warfare but he is a Vietnam war veteran (in warzone gulf war, which only is really used to keep things updated). His entire military service spanned a war that was conducted almost completely as a guerrilla war.

 

Vietnam was not conducted as a guerilla war by the US or her allies. We have never fought a war as guerrillas, and never will. The Vietcong units were a mixed bag. In most cases, the local level fighters usually didn't even have uniforms. They got very poor training, and had no choice but to fall back on guerrila tactics. The fulltime well trained vietcong army wasn't known for it.

 

This has nothing to do with the points you posted earlier, and to my knowledge, he isn't a vietnam vet in the new film.

 

This one man knows not only precision and tactical sweeps but also unconventional tactics that are actually useful in situations where he is outnumbered by great odds.

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to sell this so hard, but you posted things that didn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

I didn't mean any offense, I guess I mistook your post about turtling, suppressive fire, and strafing as real world, when you meant video games techniques. There is a difference.

 

If you want to talk about playing video games, and how that applies to the film, that's OK.

 

Circle strafing is not a military term, it's a video game term, as the wiki page clearly explains that, but I already knew that from my DOOM and QUAKE playing days. It's a great way to take out demons.

 

Frank doesn't do it in the trailer.

 

I suspect when you posted strafing earlier, you were refering again to video games, and side stepping while firing in first person shooting games?

 

This isn't real world military terminology. It threw me.

 

I'm also not trying to compare the tactics used in the 04 film to the non-tactics of the new film. They are a different animal. Obviously.

 

Also, we've had the discussion about writers for the comics who do thier research, and who don't, and those who just get by faking it. Frank Castle has done a lot of dumb shit in the comics, I agree. I don't think any of us really want to see these things in the cinema.

 

And like I also said, once my ass is in the seat and I see how the fights are constructed in the film, I might like them just fine. But based on what I've seen thus far, I sincerely doubt it.

 

Now, if you're a heavy gamer, and you like the film because it feels like a really cool video game to you, then I can accept that. I appreciate that. I appreciate body count, and automatic gunfire too.

 

He was moving down a hallway and when confronted with one enemy crouched down onto his knees in a low firing position since he had no cover in the immediate area. When 2 more enemies appear Frank flips to spraying ammunition, I do not understand how people think that even someone such as castle just walks around getting one shot kill on anything that moves, multiple shots are a sure was to make sure someone goes down (especially an adrenaline filled enemy). Thought it looks like "spray and pray" castle quite apparently takes down his foes without even any return fire. Those clips are not edited properly and are fragmented so they are a terrible example. Notice also that in the beginning when Frank is knocked down he quick draws his pistol (instead of scrambling for his m4) and puts not one, not two, but three rounds at center mass dropping his target.

 

Well, like you said, it's trailer editing. Probably not how the fights will play out in the film, sure. But there are some inherent issues with what we're seeing that leads some of us to see the kind of brainless action film we really didn't want. Don't take it personally.

 

Nobody said he needs to walk around getting one shot kills, though there are several in the red band trailer where he's shooting people in the face.

 

My issues with the guy behind the door are posted. Castle would have known he was there, or he'd of been killed. The guy would not fire 1 shot into his body armor, and then stand there and wait to be shot to death. An "adreniline filled" enemy would have unloaded into an unprotected area, in this case, the back of Castle's head.

 

Listen, multiple shots are not a sure way someone goes down unless you hit them. Otherwise, it's just a waste of ammo.

 

The knee slide is pretty awful in my book. There is plenty of cover there too, it's not about that.

 

The point I've tried to make is that clearly, we're seeing John Woo style spin and shoot action where the hero doesn't have to aim. He doesn't need cover. He doesn't need to be smarter than his enemy.

 

He just has to look really cool while shooting people.

 

Now, I have enjoyed many of these kinds of films. I still do. Just isn't what I wanted from The Punisher.

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Guest AdminGuyX

Interesting interview. Thanks for posting that. It's nice to hear that Steve is excited about his work, and about the new film. I love that passion. And Steve, congratulation on your daughter.

 

OK, honest feelings here: I'm disheartened by the color talk. It just sounds like they looked at the film like a coloring book. "The Irish are green" etc.

 

And Blade Runner? BLADE RUNNER? Sure, I saw the blue search lights cutting through the yellow hallway, but Blade Runner this film ain't.

 

I could tell Steve was uncomfortable with the comparison.

 

"The film he lives in is real" huh?

 

Don't tell Lexi! She didn't want it to be real.

 

;)

 

And, listen 300 was a solid film. PWZ won't even touch it in terms of quality.

 

I can't believe Steve tried to disparage that green screen film. 300 is an example of how you do a green screen film right.

 

Anyway, I like Steve, still think he's cool. This interview just drove home that he's a cool guy.

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While I thought 300 looked really cool, I thought the movie was pretty boring and fairly mediocre. I just didn't get it. If any movie feels like a video game, it was that.

 

It is nice to know how much Steve loves Blade Runner, and he is a very cool guy. I hope he has a lot of big projects coming up.

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You can say what you want about the how the story was in 300, but it looked good.

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"The film he lives in is real" huh?

 

Don't tell Lexi! She didn't want it to be real.

 

;)

 

Wait, Keram said there was no CG, but there is clearly a horrible looking explosion in the trailers/clip.

 

If $35 million was the overall budget, couldn't it be the $20.5 million was the shooting budget. I mean the 2004 film was around $35 million too but was only shot with around $13 million.

 

But it was a good interview.

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What I was trying to explain came out wrong, I should learn to proof read

 

 

"What you posted above is inaccurate. The tactic was designed by professional soldiers, to be used by professionals. Suppressive fire isn't known as a guerrilla tactic, and is in fact used by larger forces to keep smaller forces busy while they flank, and then overcome them."

 

On the contrary :) it is YOU who is inaccurate. And before you get all defensive about me using VIDEO GAME TERMONOLOGY you should look back and see where you were talking about "spray and pray" which most definatly derived its name from video games.

 

 

Suppressive fire is NOT used only by groups of combatants, according to wikipedia (im sourcing so you can see what Im talking about, not because I dont know) Suppressive fire (also known as covering fire) is a term used in military science for firing weapons at or in the direction of enemy forces with the primary goal of reducing their ability to defend themselves or return fire, by forcing them to remain under cover.

 

I see where you thought Frank was using "spray and pray" which is used as more of an inexperienced tactic, you can even see in the trailer where his enemies are hip firing (looks like an mp40 haha) and "spray and praying".

 

Do you disagree that is exactly what Frank is doing? He his clearly NOT aiming at any specific target, which leads us to beleive he is using suppressive fire[/] in order to forcing his enemies to remain under cover. Hes not using the tactic in an inexperienced way, hes using it because thats what nessacary, though we wont really know for sure till the movie comes out.

 

 

If you disagree with this I would like to know what you would do in said situation, or at least what do you think is going on?

 

 

 

 

Vietnam was not conducted as a guerilla war by the US or her allies. We have never fought a war as guerrillas, and never will. The Vietcong units were a mixed bag. In most cases, the local level fighters usually didn't even have uniforms. They got very poor training, and had no choice but to fall back on guerrila tactics. The fulltime well trained vietcong army wasn't known for it."

 

 

The main battle forces on both sides rarely conducted guerrilla tactics, yet smaller units were very well known (on both sides) for being forced to use guerrilla tactics in an environment that is best suited for said combat.

 

Do you not think that Franks countless battles with the Vietcong taught him how guerrilla warfare can be so effective? hell one of Franks most famous battles was conducted 1 on 1 as a sniper battle deep in the jungle, hardly a conventional battle.

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with the points you posted earlier, and to my knowledge, he isn't a vietnam vet in the new film

 

Really the only reason they changed his back story was to better suite the time period, it would seem rather odd for frank to be only in his 40's and being a 'nam et in 2008........so for the sake of argument he remains a Vietnam vet in both the '04 and '08 movies.

 

 

 

 

 

Circle strafing is not a military term, it's a video game term, as the wiki page clearly explains that, but I already knew that from my DOOM and QUAKE playing days. It's a great way to take out demons.

 

ok, another area where you misunderstood my post

 

 

I did not mean he was literally using video game tactics, I ment merely to explain the type of movement he was using (fast sideways motion) since you go SO irked when I first said "strafe" in the first place

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody said he needs to walk around getting one shot kills, though there are several in the red band trailer where he's shooting people in the face.

 

 

As there should be, but im getting the feeling that people expect one shot one kill on everyone or something

 

My issues with the guy behind the door are posted. Castle would have known he was there, or he'd of been killed. The guy would not fire 1 shot into his body armor, and then stand there and wait to be shot to death. An "adreniline filled" enemy would have unloaded into an unprotected area, in this case, the back of Castle's head.[b/]

 

This is where I cant help but think people are getting nit picky, you wanted beleivability right? so he gets knocked over and shot in the back. The thing here is that he only gets shot once yes, but how fast do you expect an inexperienced hood to fire a revolver? even if he got another round off I doubt he would be able to pull off a headshot. Frank also. before even hitting the ground, quick draws his pistol and pounds three nails into the guy

 

 

 

Listen, multiple shots are not a sure way someone goes down unless you hit them. Otherwise, it's just a waste of ammo.

 

Was that even necessary to say? of course you needs to hit someone to kill them!

 

 

As for the knee sliding, does it really distract you that much? is it that completely unbelievable that it would be used? Frank CAN and HAS done plenty of iffy things, you seem to forget that the MAX run is not the only aspect of the punisher.

 

 

 

 

The point I've tried to make is that clearly, we're seeing John Woo style spin and shoot action where the hero doesn't have to aim. He doesn't need cover. He doesn't need to be smarter than his enemy. Now, I have enjoyed many of these kinds of films. I still do. Just isn't what I wanted from The Punisher.

 

You really have yet to see the movie, as do I, so lets wait and see. Trailers are often very different from the movies they attempt to show

 

 

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Frank has done silly shit, but the movie is a different beast from the comic and doesn't need to have him leaping through the air.

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Frank has done silly shit, but the movie is a different beast from the comic and doesn't need to have him leaping through the air.

 

 

 

How is it different? The comic most likely contains more "cheese"

 

 

 

*spoiler

 

 

 

The reason Frank enters through the window (via leaping through the air) is because Cristu's father has a small army fighting in the lower levels (can be seen in red band trailer) and entering through the higher floors would afford him a surprise attack on jigsaw.

 

 

How is that a bad decision? Would it happen in our world? No but then again neither would a huge gun battle lead by a man with a mangled face and a crazy cannibal brother. This movie is surreal already, why cant it have such a scene?

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I wasn't really commenting on that it was more a general thing. Frank has done flips in the air landed on his feet in the comic, and because something was done in the comic that was silly, doesn't mean the movie needs to adhere the comic book physics.

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Guest AdminGuyX
On the contrary it is YOU who is inaccurate. And before you get all defensive about me using VIDEO GAME TERMONOLOGY you should look back and see where you were talking about "spray and pray" which most definatly derived its name from video games.

 

Spray and Pray isn't derived from video games. It's been around since WW2.

 

Suppressive fire is NOT used only by groups of combatants, according to wikipedia (im sourcing so you can see what Im talking about, not because I dont know) Suppressive fire (also known as covering fire) is a term used in military science for firing weapons at or in the direction of enemy forces with the primary goal of reducing their ability to defend themselves or return fire, by forcing them to remain under cover.

 

Well, my friend, what purpose could they possible want to keep people under cover FOR I wonder. I already explained this.

 

I didn't post that it was only used by a group of combatants. I said it can't be done by 1 person alone. But this is a movie, for all we know Frank has robot sentry guns in the corners.

 

And, one of my cinematic examples was in fact a 2 person use of it in HEAT.

 

And, FYI, wiki is not a reliable source of information. It's user edited and quite often factually innacturate. I could go to any of those pages and change them. I could change the definition of circle strafing to shooting spitwads off a merry go 'round if I wanted to. Someone probably has.

 

Hes not using the tactic in an inexperienced way, hes using it because thats what nessacary, though we wont really know for sure till the movie comes out.

 

Which, I doubt will make any difference in how I view the action scenes, but I'm willing to give it a try. Like I said a bunch of times now. Believe me, I WANT to like this. I like some things about the film, I like RAY as Frank a whole lot.

 

Was that even necessary to say?

 

Respectfully, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here. After trying to sell the whole "turtle" thing, I felt I had to explain it, yes.

 

As for the knee sliding, does it really distract you that much? is it that completely unbelievable that it would be used? Frank CAN and HAS done plenty of iffy things, you seem to forget that the MAX run is not the only aspect of the punisher.

 

It's not distracting me. I don't like it. I think it looks terrible. It's not the way a trained soldier would move through that environment, so yes it's very unbelievable to me. That doesn't mean in the context of the larger film I can't ignore it. This has to be the 50th time I've posted that.

 

And I've been reading the Punisher since the first mini series in the early 80's. I know what it's about. There is a very good reason that real world Marine Corp units love this character, and have embraced the logo. For a long time, he didn't do "iffy" things in the comics. The writers did research, and if you get issues written by certain writers, they still do.

 

I'm not implying the stories should be utterly, perfectly real world accurate for me to love them, I just can't swallow some of the stupid shit I'm seeing in the trailers.

 

If you disagree with this I would like to know what you would do in said situation, or at least what do you think is going on?

 

I wouldn't slide on my knees. In a real world situtaion like this, Frank would be killed.

 

What do I think is going on? I already posted this.

 

since you go SO irked when I first said "strafe" in the first place

 

As I said, I just didn't know you were reffering to a video game manuever.

 

I'm not irked. You posted it along with the turtle collar, which was also just nonsense. Strafing - in real life - has nothing to do with a man in a hallway with a rifle.

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I have to agree that the sliding on the knees thing is pretty stupid. He could have taken cover against the wall and used a tactical mirror to look around the corner, or fire off a few shots, or toss a grenade. I just hope there is good amount of realistic tactics in the film, though I am still pumped to see the movie. Only another 29 days until then.

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Yeah, like Noeland said, the number one priority was probably just to make what ever Castle was doing look cool. I mean they apparently attempted to do the chair leg pivot spin move that's on the Lexi Alexander draft before they realized how ridiculous it was and went for the lesser of two evils in the chandelier spin.

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They added new pics to the gallery at the main website.

 

Thanx for the heads up man...the pics are kool, I especially like Julie Benz holding the gun (she's so hott)...But something else I liked was the picture of Frank in the background wearing the long trenchcoat...I didnt think we were gonna get the trench.

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Guest AdminGuyX

Looks like the coat he wears to the grave maybe.

 

I must say, what I liked about the TV spot was the way the colors have been tweaked down and muted. They're not so BRIGHT in the new TV spot. Happy to see that! I think it looks a lot better.

 

 

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So is Marvel Knights like the R rated film equivalent of MAX now?

 

But yeah same 'ole shit.

 

 

You know Mikey, I didn't expect them do do the whole Marvel Knights thingie. That's a first for me. I guess they're just trying to differentiate The Punisher from all of the other "friendlier" Marvel films coming out these days. Just to let everyone know that this is Marvel's dark side perhaps.

 

 

But yeah, I'm agreeing with Noe over here about toning down the colors a bit. Makes it a bit more tolerable ha?

 

 

-Raf

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I didnt notice the toned down lighting and stuff till the second time i watched it...i knew there was something different i just couldnt quite put my finger on it...I agree though it looks so much better.

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Yeah, the lighting does look a bit better.

 

yes, ive been saying this all along, how anyone judge the flick when all that was offered was a pile of dailies...i also said that post production would be visually better.

 

 

 

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Guest AdminGuyX
ive been saying this all along

 

It was discussed by all of us at length when the trailer first hit. I think the consensus was, and what Steve once mentioned was that it wasn't the final look.

 

And I also think it bears mentioning that all of us but 1, have ben judging the trailers, not the film. I've tried to make that clear a number of times now.

 

I'd say the TV spot looks really nice.

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Spray and Pray isn't derived from video games. It's been around since WW2.

 

 

So has strafing, but the term istelf "spray and pray" is used mostly as a video game term. I guess youll always be right no matter what I say though.....

 

 

 

I didn't post that it was only used by a group of combatants. I said it can't be done by 1 person alone. But this is a movie, for all we know Frank has robot sentry guns in the corners.

 

 

but suppressive fire CAN be used by 1 person alone, why do you keep trying to fight me on that, of course 1 person can use it!

 

 

This is taken from The language of warfare dictionary and research guide, whoa, its on Wikipedia to!

 

suppressive fire

Suppressive fire is a military term for firing weapons at or in the direction of an enemy with the primary goal of reducing their ability to defend themselves or return fire, by forcing them to remain under cover.

 

 

Did you notice in there where it said " CAN ONLY BE USED BY GROUPS OF 2 OR MORE"

 

 

no, and I challenge you to find anything that contradicts that besides your own knowledge, see because Im trying to at least source and explain things

 

 

 

And, FYI, wiki is not a reliable source of information. It's user edited and quite often factually innacturate. I could go to any of those pages and changethem. I could change the definition of circle strafing to shooting spitwads off a merry go 'round if I wanted to. Someone probably has.

 

Its unfortunate that people STILL think like this

 

while VERY FEW articles on wikipedia are not sourced, most have dozens of sources and even more members who fix errors in record time.

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here. After trying to sell the whole "turtle" thing, I felt I had to explain it, yes.

 

 

I just dont understand why that cannot be an option, what do you think it is since my opinion is so flawed, why would they put such a huge neckguard just to not have it be bulletproof. It seems to be made of a sturdy material....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I said, I just didn't know you were referring to a video game manuever. I'm not irked. You posted it along with the turtle collar, which was also just nonsense. Strafing - in real life - has nothing to do with a man in a hallway with a rifle.

 

 

I WASNT refering to the actual movement being videogame, I was trying to point out what I meant by strafing (as a sideways motion)

 

 

 

 

This movie is vastly different the the last punisher movie, jane only had to deal with 1 or 2 enemies at a time, not a hotel full of automatic weapon weilding hoods..................slow and methodical seems like it would get you killed quicker in a situation where enemies can be anywhere.......

 

 

 

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