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Tim Bradstreet

The Punisher: WarZone

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You're not a loser in my book. The Last Crusade is an AMAZING movie from beginning (River Phoenix gets the hat) to end (the 4 ride off into the sunset). I get chills just writing about it, the score by John fuckin Williams is in my head right now. Its just a movie you don't get tired of.

 

"We named the dog Indiana." -Dr. Henry Jones aka Sean 007 Connery

 

-TL

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I had mentioned Dominic West way back when before Tom was cast. I'd seen a picture of him from The Wire and thought he might be interesting, knowing they weren't going to be able to afford a top tier, well known actor.

 

If after Tom left I'd been in charge of casting it, and could choose any actor big or small (box office),

I'd have suggested Eddie Izzard . . .

 

Sorry, just being silly.

 

No, I'd have cast - Ray Stevenson. And that's not a cop out, or in any way meant to ingratiate myself to the current regime. No. I think it was smart to do a 180 and go for Ray when they could have filled Tom's shoes closer to the mark.

 

And if that was the order of the day I'd have gone straight to James Purefoy, and not simply because he and Jane could play brothers in a movie. I think Purefoy is bold, unpredictable, a wonderful actor, and he could be firghtening as a stone killer. I'm trying to develop something for he and TJ to do together.

 

It's my opinion that there is not a better casting choice than Ray at this point in time for the movie they want to make.

Now if it was a 50 year old MAX Frank Castle we're talking about then I'd have more options there.

 

On a seperate note on the subject of left field casting:

I also harken you back to 1980 and a little film John Carpenter had set up called Escape From New York.

He wanted to cast that kid Kurt Russell, primarily known as a Disney Actor in his anti-hero actioner.

Huge resistance from the studio until Carpenter did a photoshoot with Kurt in costume, long hair, eye patch, etc . . .

That one worked out OK too ;)

 

- TB

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Certain actors can portray Frank Castle very well or very bad. Most of the actors being suggested here could all be good Frank Castles if given a chance to work with it. Now the closer you have a actor look like him, then you have something that everyone recognises.

 

What makes me a little annoyed is that having a certain movie with one actor, and then in a year or two, the sequel has a totally different person casted.

 

It can only be good if the person they casted totally kicks ass, and pulls it off.

 

 

 

Not to sound like a broken record in suggesting a actor to fill the shoes of the Punisher but..

 

Anyone here think's Thomas Haden Church might have been a good replacement?

 

spiderman3_images_17.jpg

 

Spider-Man3_4.jpg

 

CTC-1622-image4.jpg

 

as a slightly older Punisher?

 

 

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I think Thomas Church is a bad motherfucker. Sideways, Broken Trail, Spider Man 3 - ALL impressive performances. I do not see him as Frank Castle, but that's only because there's another Thomas that I feel is the only guy that should play him. Where I to be the casting director in charge of finding a replacement for Jane, I woulda quit the job.

 

-TL

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Yeah, TJ was the best, Flawless in every way as the punisher. But what can you do, He didn't like the script... so he didn't want to take any part in the new movie.

 

But If I had to pick someone to be the new punisher since TJ wasn't going to, THC would have been one of my choices.

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Guest FADoss

So here's the deal. TJ was offered the role and walked because of his convictions about the film.

 

The studio could have either accommodated Tom or gone with a different actor.

 

They chose a different actor...AND...and this is the part that kills me...changed the script.

 

I'd like to know how much they changed it...and what the disagreement was between Tom and the studio? What were they doing that made Tom walk? I mean Tom is a cool guy and it was obviously artistic differences...BUT if they changed the film after he dropped, why didn't they just change it in his direction.

 

This goes along with WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T THEY TAKE KEVIN SMITH'S SCRIPT FOR DAREDEVIL???!!!

 

And on the Daredevil note...maybe Frank Miller (dependent on the success of his directorial debut with "The Spirit") could direct a sequel. Frank directing Daredevil. Now if that ain't the shit. AND I'LL TAKE TOM JANE AS DAREDEVIL. THAT is a role he is PERFECT for. I think we can all agree on a reboot of that title... :)

 

As far as Ray as Punisher...I think he'll be awesome. I really hope people can get over the fact that Tom could have been Punisher again, but wasn't happy with the script. He...as well as the studio folks made a choice. RAY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT and isn't STEALING anything from anyone.

 

So...again...here's hoping for a quality script and a quality film...even though Tom isn't in the picture.

 

Frederic

 

BTW, Does anyone else see the resemblance between the #129 cover Punisher and the Ray Stevenson official pic above? I think it's damn near dead on. :)

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Noeland, why don't you go ahead and give Doss the comparison of the original Warzone script that made Jane walk and the new script that Alexander is nutting herself over. I'd do it myself - but they feel (sound) identical to me.

 

-TL

 

 

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A little article from a magazine who's name I seem to have lost in translation...

 

"Crime and Punisher"

 

By Eric Alt (2004)

 

[Alt talks with Thomas Jane about the Punisher]

 

Alt: "By all accounts, the movie is more 70s action flick than CGI comic book... But will that satisfy the fan-boys?"

 

Jane: "They're a hard crowd to please, but we made it as violent and gritty as we could. I'm happy with it. I love Frank Castle... But the Punisher's a maverick. He kills people. Guys like Daredevil and Spider Man all want to take him in. They don't believe in his brand of justice. But criminals killed his family. They deserved it."

 

-TL

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Guest AdminGuyX

Thomas Hayden Church looks way too "Irish" to play Frank Castle for my tastes. I really love him as an actor, have since Wings. And I'm Irish, so don't go getting down on me for that! And there is also something about his presence, and the way he speaks that just doesn't scare me, and I can't see him in the performance. Even in Spider-Man he was a tragic figure, not really a villian. Plus, those huge ears are so distracting . . .

 

James Purefoy is an interesting as hell idea. And Tim, they DO look like they could play brothers. Damn, I never saw that until I read it. So to speak. Type. :) And sticking them in a film together is also pretty great. (See if you have a role for Will Patton, OK?) That is a film I want to see.

 

For my money, I'd cast Chris Meloni. The man can't sit down in a chair, or stroll across the room without it looking intense. But that would be my Punisher film. A non-stop assault of character, intensity, intelligence, and purpose. A lean film meant to suck the audience into Frank's head, and agree with him, and want him to punish evil so bad, they HAVE to see it. When they walk out of the theater I want the audience to feel like they can spot scumbags a mile away, like they have a job to do, like they are ready to do what needs doing.

 

Then the guys go home and make love to their girls with a PURPOSE, and want to see my movie again. Know what I'm sayin?

 

hahahaha.

 

Yeah, I think about these things when I write films. So what?

 

SO WHAT?

 

;)

 

PS - didn't see above until after I posted.

 

I have no idea what the differences in the script may be, but I think these things happen for a simple reason. Money. The studio commissioned a script, and more than likely, Tom wanted to toss the whole thing in the garbage and start over, the studio probably said "But we've already paid these writers $45,000 to write it. We can't just start over now Tom."

 

We've already read it. Tom wanted Taxi Driver/Death Wish level story and character work. I think he wanted to play Frank Castle on a "just" note, not a "oops, I killed an undercover cop" note. But that's totally my overactive brain assuming things.

 

Ultimately, I'm betting they will make a Death Wish style punisher film, but it might take another decade.

 

And by the way, the studio wanted Charles Bronson for Snake Plissken (as mentioned elsewhere on the boards I think) and I do believe that would have sucked a duck.

 

OH, PPS, one more thing. Just my 2cents again:

 

The film that made me think TJ could do the Punisher justice was called Under Suspicion. He went toe to toe with Gene Hackman, and stole a few scenes in there, IMHO.

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Guest AdminGuyX

Damn TL, you are quick on the pictures!

 

If you guys haven't seen it, get it, watch it, you missed a real gem!!

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Guest FADoss

Noeland,

 

I don't think commissioning the script is a big deal for major studios. They rewrite for actors all the time...AND could have easily changed some minor elements of the script and released it as a separate film...not losing the money they spent on the script. I think I mentioned the Die Hard 3 script was originally written for Lethal Weapon or something.

 

I think that one thing that may be true regarding money is...what was the performance of the original film? How much did it make in video sales? The studio may have been pressing for a completely different take...and if Tom wanted more of the same...then I can see why they didn't budge.

 

Again, we'll probably never know the reason exactly, because Tom is a professional and isn't going to dog out the studio.

 

I will say that if Tom had Harrison Ford popularity they would have rewritten the fucking script.

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Doss, I actually agree with some elements in your last post (to Noeland apparently), and I gotta say - its pretty clear that Valhalla and LGF shut down any idea of the script being re-written out of pure time concern. These guys wanted a Punisher film in theatres next year and were gonna do whatever it took to achieve that. Even fuckin over Castle himself if necessary. They never in the 6 months of Warzone limbo prior to pre-pro, agreed to go back to formula and develop another story. It woulda delayed production for another undefined period of time. LGF wants cash from this franchise, TJ was collateral damage for having love for Frank and not wanting him in a story that woudn't do him justice. His vision WOULD have made money (for an R film) but these assholes weren't willing to wait. Its true injustice, because the man had been dedicated to Castle for 2 years after the original, preparing himself for a second film. Professional or not, I'm happy the man has been open about his disgust with Warzone.

 

Die Hard with a Vengeance was a great film (also written by Hensleigh). Your lack of enthusiasm for the last Punisher film could be traced back to its writer. The question is, did you like Armageddon?

 

-TL

 

p.s. I still haven't heard your retort to the last post I wrote involving your name - give it a read and post away.

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Doss, I actually agree with some elements in your last post (to Noeland apparently), and I gotta say - its pretty clear that Valhalla and LGF shut down any idea of the script being re-written out of pure time concern. These guys wanted a Punisher film in theatres next year and were gonna do whatever it took to achieve that.

 

TL is right on the nose here. And also consider that LGF's option on the character runs out at the end of this month, or extremely soon after. Time was a BIG issue.

 

- TB

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Guest FADoss
TL is right on the nose here. And also consider that LGF's option on the character runs out at the end of this month, or extremely soon after. Time was a BIG issue.

 

- TB

 

Which is a legitimate cash concern. Do I make a movie without Tom Jane? Or do I fiddle with a rewrite and let someone else make a movie with Tom Jane. Oh and by the way, I've spent God knows how much of someone else's money to acquire the rights.

 

Sounds like the primary mistake was not involving Tom In the writing of the film. Speaking of lousy scripts for film franchises...it's too bad Mel Gibson and Danny Glover didn't have Tom's dedication when it came to the last two Lethal Weapon films. :)

 

Frederic

 

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Guest FADoss

One other thing...I want to make it clear that if I had my choice of who would play the Punisher in the next film it would be Tom. I'm just hoping for Warzone to be quality even without him. Sort of a devil's advocate.

 

Frederic

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I learn so much when I read this thread. It's great.

 

Some thoughts after reading through about 4 pages of posts:

 

Since over the years The Punisher has been written and depicted in different ways, it isn't too radical of an idea that Ray Stevenson could step in and be another Punisher "type." I don't really see him as an evolution of the character or as the Punisher about 10 years down the road, unless we're talking about a parallel universe.

 

In a perfect world, and in TJ's Punisher universe, I think it would have been cool to watch the character change over a series of three or four films. To keep continuity with direction and writing, and watch Frank become more and more battle scarred, world weary, and more and more disconnected from normal human inter-relations. IMHO this would have made the pathos of the character that much deeper over time. Hmmmm, this must be in the Vicki parallel universe. B)

 

Anywho, I have no problem watching Ray as a "different" Punisher version. I do think they can get carried away with the idea of rebooting in LALA land.

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This is why I am DEAD SET against Warzone. The makers of this film were more concerned with its release date than its quality. Thomas Jane had been attached to the Punisher almost a year before pre-pro began (late 2002). He had time to pick up Street's material (which is WHY he agreed to do the film) and learn from it. He had time to get acquainted with the character. He had time to become Frank Castle. Ray Stevenson had 3 MONTHS. Lexi Alexander had 4 MONTHS. Even Kevin Nash had more time to prepare for his week of shooting (He announced an upcoming film project during the WWE pay-per-view Backlash 5 months before his shoot as the Russian). The final product will prove that Hensleigh's Punisher was a far more personal project than Alexander's ever had time to be.

 

LGF and Valhalla coulda renegotiated and bought TJ more time. They didn't. So let's be realistic here, they WOULDN'T. They feel Frank Castle can live on without Thomas Jane. They feel Frank Castle can live on with this story that Jane refused to do. Let's see if they were right...

 

A man who lives to Punish evil, wears the skull that symbolizes the memory of his fallen son...

thomasjaneisfrankcastlelp6.jpg

 

It felt personal and not rushed to me.

 

-TL

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In a perfect world, and in TJ's Punisher universe, I think it would have been cool to watch the character change over a series of three or four films. To keep continuity with direction and writing, and watch Frank become more and more battle scarred, world weary, and more and more disconnected from normal human inter-relations. IMHO this would have made the pathos of the character that much deeper over time.

 

Yep, and it's an awful shame that Tom couldn't be a part of that which was the plan from the beginning, to see Jane and the Character get older together, each film a chapter in Castle's life as his war continues.

 

Not to be with the Punisher unless down the road the conditions are right and Tom steps back in, hey, Connery did it.

Approached in the right way with the right script I'm confident Tom would reprise the role. I'm not saying this to spark anyone's hopes unnecessarily, I'm just thinking outloud. It's also possible he could do something similar with a different character.

 

Oh, and folks . . . I was lucky enough to see a graded, finished, fat 4+ minute trailer for Mutant Chronicles while on Dark Country. I was BLOWN away. If you're ready to see Jane kick ass in a baddass film you don't have too long to wait.

It's the same extended trailer they showed at Cannes that at the time was a rough cut, except now it's fully finished.

All I can say is . . . Holy Merde!

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I hope this is very well the case. I wanna see Tom back. Granted Bond and Castle are two completely different character, but anything can happen. Fuckin Connery was what in his late 50's early 60's when he came back in '83 right? I haven't been too familiar with the Bond films. MY deepest apologies ; )

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Connery played 007 in 5 films from 1962-1967.

 

George Lazenby replaced him in 1969's "On Her Majesty's Secret Service".

 

In 1971, Connery returned to the role after Lazenby crapped out on the studio, for "Diamonds Are Forever".

 

Roger Moore replaced him in 1973's "Live and Let Die".

 

In 1983, after re-gaining the rights to 1965's "Thunderball", Kevin McClory was allowed to remake the film in his true vision. He convinced Connery to return for his 7th outing as 007 in "Never Say Never Again". Ironically, Connery starred in Thunderball.

 

That same year, Roger Moore's "Octopussy" was also released and actually did better in the box office than the Connery film.

 

-TL

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Guest AdminGuyX

Marvel could always go the Iron Man, and Incredible Hulk route and make their own "The Punisher" film now, if the rights have lapsed back to them.

 

Wouldn't that be an interesting twist of fate?

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